Diablo III: Blizzard Defends Auto-Attributes

tbh i liked it, you avoid situations at higher levels were you end up holding avaible stat points depending on what gear that drops. Only way you can really safely spend stats points and not overdo one of the "fitting stats" is if you have another char that will feed you your endgame items and you have an engame plan right away.

 

"While it is arguable that the new system takes away a certain amount of
freedom from players, the simplest counter to that argument was that
there were only a few “ultimate” builds for each class, and most
veteran players simply upgraded their Strength and Dexterity attributes
to the prerequisite base amounts for equipping certain items and dumped
the rest into Vitality.

"

This. It was also annoying to reroll once you found a more godly item which allowed you to put less points in str/dex and more into vit.

 

So what youre saying is.. giving rewards to people with proper planning in their build is a bad thing?

I'm sorry you 'found' that new item that forced you to change your build, but I already accounted for it. I knew it existed before I started the build, and at worst a simple charm swap would allow it to be used to maximum potential if it gets acquired.

I built properly, you didn't, I reap the benefits. This is exactly the reason I loved the system, and why its a shame that its gone. The days of planning and perfectionism are done.

 

Do you even know what you are talking about? You can't "plan" for godly rare items, as they are random spawns, and often don't exist before you start building. That is unless you play nl and have enough fgs to buy things like Storm Hide, Bugged Belt, 08 Valk etc. or D2PK where the items are already created for you.

 

In the case of a rare, just because theyre random doesnt mean you shouldn't know the possible modifiers that can spawn on them. Theyre set by the game, experienced players know this. To plan for them, you use the appropiate stats on your skiller charms. It's not brain surgery. If my ideal 2/20 isn't in my possession yet, dedicate a skiller to the attribute you need.

 

Then it isn't a final build as anything that isn't a 45 lifer or fhr skiller is temporary.

 

And also easily replaced with said charm from the stash once you go out and acquire what you want, which doesn't take long if you know what you're doing.

Compared to your declaration of "It was also annoying to reroll once you found a more godly item", i think being prepared and holding the extra charm in your stash wins out. It's called planning your build.

 

Actually no, because to be effective in duels you needed every last ounce of stat. Temporarily, it is a lot more effective to stat Str/Dex and use lifers than it is to use stat charms and stat Vit. Unless of course you don't plan to do anything until you find the perfect modifiers, which even if they do exist currently are terribly expensive.

It is also much easier and effective to reroll and grush/guber yourself to 90 in a few hours, than it is to have a subpar build until you miraculously find that perfect roll.

 

Building this way ends with the same exact stats and equipment as an optimal build organized beforehand. Just until you find the piece that you're looking for, you acquire the extra stats from said charm. When you get the piece, you equip it, swap the charm with the lifer, and have the same exact end result that you would achieve. Minus your unnecessary reroll.

You don't know what you're even arguing anymore. My reply was to your comment of having to reroll once you find a new item for your build. The very idea of that screams poor planning and game knowledge, and is the exact reason why D2s attribute system gives a smart player an edge over a stupid one.

 

Adding to your charms point, it is a lot of difference to use a 6 dex skiller for example, than a 45 lifer. 6 dex = 6 extra points in vit which is 12-18 life depending on the class I believe. Of course you can use stat charms temporarily and keep Str/Dex at a base, but again that is not min/maxing your build.

 

Posting clarification as follow-up since edit timer is running out:

I don't think we are disagreeing really, of course you need to have a rough plan for your build against the items you can easily obtain, such as 20 stat torches/annis/runewords/uniques/temp rares, etc.

What I mean is what do you do if you suddenly find that fcr ring that has 2 more Str than the one you have currently? Or you find a superior ring with more life, mana, res that has lower strength that would break your build? In the end, it is still a matter of 2-3 stat points and most will find it not worthwhile, however for the min/maxers it is impossible to fully and completely plan a build from the start.

Anyway, this is straying from the topic, where I don't believe that auto-stating will take away any character customisation, provided Blizzard add an alternate system in place. This is especially true since the majority of builds in D2 had you follow a similar template despite the manual stating, which was to max vit as high as possible after you have enough str/dex for gear (ideal base str/dex max vit).

 

You can plan to buy them on ebay :/

 

maybe the devs didn't try to play and 8-player game of hell cows. Silly devs.......why would want to inflate our vitality? This is another case of book-smart people being dumb.

 

I apologize for my typos.

 

This is seriously bad news.

Diablo2 was an epic game to play.  But it got boring very fast and customization was the key to making the game have it's trademark 'uncapped' replayability.

For example you're an amazon.  In any other game, the amazon would be stuck with an 'amazon' weapon and light/leather armor.  In Diablo2 you could pump strength and wear 'tank' items to absorb a tonne of damage and effectively tank while pumping arrows or whatever, sacrificing your missile damage in the process, but becoming a strong solo character.

It looks like they're making a non-MMO world of warcraft with blood and gore.

 

No-one does this. amazons wear frw/ias gear socketed with 40/15 or light facets, without exception. Customisation is there but everyone goes down the cookie-cutter route.

Hopefully with d3 they will still allow the same customisation to take place, just not with manual stats that don't provide any freedom at all.

 

O_o What the heck? I've played Amazon nearly exlcusively, and made a ton of viable Hell builds without using those items. "Without exception"... ppphhh. About 2/3rds of mine have been tanks!

Working on Plagueazon right now. Won't be able to solo Hell diff, but damn is she awesome fun in NM!

 

Well, I meant pvp viable chars, which is what I mainly do. "Without exception" was a hyperbole, excuse me.

Either way, it doesn't change my point that the majority of *attribute* builds (not gear) out there are cookie cutter. I've only seen a few truly original builds succeed.

 

Oooohhh I see. PvP. Yeah I've always been PvE. Though Plagueazon in PvP is absolutely hilarious. Nothing like seeing the toughest Barbarian get leeched to 1 Hp after being hit with a 5k poisen damage javelin :P

Hitting them for that last point though... can be tough.

Yes, most people do end up being cookie cutter, as you said. Making a build you know will end up worthless just isn't appealing to most people, understandably. I don't know if taking away stats will stop people doing that with their skills and weapon choices, but meh. They might implement something.

 

you're welcome for the poison charms. lol.

 

It's not bad news at all when you consider how unviable most classes were in Diablo II. Diablo III isn't simply a rehash of the DII skill system with the removal of manually assigned stats. Au contraire, DIII introduces an entirely new skill system that doesn't force players to waste points in useless skills to get to the skills they want. It's much easier to balance skills out this way and skills are tempered with runes that modify how they work, allowing players to build adjust their skills according to their playstyles.

In DII, you would never, as a Sorceress or a Necromancer, want to spend any points whatsoever in Willpower because it didn't do anything besides add to your mana pool. It was an effectively useless attribute. Likewise, throwing points into dexterity as a Barbarian had little impact on his overall capabilities, making it a waste to do so.

DIII avoids this pitfall by assigning stats automatically and making it so that every class doesn't become a health tank. This way, players are able to better focus on their builds by developing affective skill builds that match with their playstyles.

It's not too different from how World of Warcraft handles its talent system, and it's one of the good things about that game.

It might be seen as a 'dumbing down' of Diablo II, but in reality, there's not much point in sticking to a flawed system for the sake of retaining complexity. A parallel can be just as easily drawn with Dungeons & Dragons. In every subsequent revision of the game, D&D has been increasingly streamlined with many of its pointless systems (THAC0, spell memorization, skills, etc) removed for the sake of building more defined character classes and less 'throwaway' skills.

There's little point in giving the Fighter the ability to spend any points in diplomacy when it costs too much for it to even be useful, for example. Detractors would argue that this is dumbing down D&D for a newer audience, but in truth, the old systems never worked very well. That's all there is to it.

 

i see what you're saying.

but essentially the customization is gone.

it looks like it will be impossible to optimize characters, everyone will be built the same (e.g. no more sacrificing a high str/dex req item to gain more vitality, or sacrificing willpower because you have plenty of twink items boosting your mana pool) etc. or turn your caster class into a solo cookie-cutter tank.

optimizing and freedom are essential in such a game imo.

p.s. let's face it - pvp in rpg's is carp.  guildwars is the only game that can do it right.

 

Gone? Not quite. Blizzard is simply implementing new ways to customize your character. The old, flawed attribute system lent very little to character customization. Almost every character shared the same or similar attribute build, and it was only their equipment and skills that set them apart. 

If you've ever played World of Warcraft, which also features auto-attributes, you'll realize that there are many different builds for the same character class and this is possible due to the talent system.  

The decision to remove manual attributes in the DIII has nothing to do with PVP and everything to do with creating a more verbose skill system.

 

world of warcraft has no customization.

and twinking is useless because the items are level restricted.  you can't, for example, boost strength to equip an item at a stange in the game where it would be extremly powerful.

twinking was the best replay feature in the game along with the trading system.


i stopped playing d2 around patch v1.10, when the stupid runewords killed off the trading system, essentially because runes were the only items of value and they were terrible to farm.

farming hell bosses then trading semi-valuable items made trading fun.

 

world of warcraft has no customization.

While it doesn't have the same degree of possible customisation as pre-synergies D2 had (or PvE Guild Wars has), I have to stop and wonder if you've actually played it.  There are more or less three playstyles to each class, more if you go with some weird hybrid build.

twinking is useless because the items are level restricted

Items in D2 were level restricted too...?!

 

If you can optimise characters, everyone will be built the same: they will be built with that optimality in mind...

 

I say "Thank god" personally. Playing the game recently has shown everything in a new light. Only now do I realise exactly how much I hate stats, potions and town portals. I'm be glad to see them go. I don't find increasing them fun in the slightest. I actually worry more about wrecking my character.

I highly doubt that removing the points will "cripple" characters to that degree i.e. forcing the Ranger to wear light armour. I doubt items are going to have much in the way of stat requirements at all if that's the case. They might be removed altogether. Most likely it'll become either skill tree or level based, which I'd much prefer.

Blizzard aren't idiots, guys, they'd make allowances for this stuff. It'd be incredibly stupid to leave stat requirements on gear when stats are no longer even a game mechanic.

 

Bethryn wrote an article in March entitled A Trip Back Through Levelling Up which discussed this issue nicely, though not specifically pertaining to Diablo 3.

Progression mechanics that use statistical increases give only the illusion of advancement and are ultimately much less entertaining than systems that use variety as a progression mechanic.

More often than not monsters level with the player in a stat-based levelling system, which reduces your net progress to nil. To quote Bethryn: "your power is relatively identical when you're looking at opponents of
your own level; you've done nothing but improved against enemies lower
level than you, who represent decreased reward on defeat (both
statistically and enjoyably)..."

I'm all for the auto-leveller so long as it's not absolutely stupid. I'd rather have more emphasis placed on the variety of ways skills interact with one another, monsters, and other players.

 

Sounds good to me. Probably help those newer or less informed players. Hell my first time playing D2 I had assigned stats to my character that wasn't needed. Now I know better, but that doesn't mean everyone will know 100% of what stats they should or should not increase.

Good change imo

 

I was disappointed (at first), but it all comes down on how they implement a substitute for stat customization.

It could be:
- something like feats like in NWN (medium armor, weapon type)
- something like sockets
- something as simple as plain stats+ on equipment
- any kind of predefined reserved "slots" for different boost.
- or a combination of all.

The vital thing is:
To keep control, there has to be a limited pool of slots/equipment/boosts to supply you character with additional stats. Maybe some combinations are forbidden or have synergies or even penalties for balance reasons.

In the end, it doesn't matter if this pool consists of 5*99 distributable stats points or xy*slots/feat(whatever units).
Min/max possible or not,  does not depend on the used unit, but on the restrictions they will implement.
This sounds so generalized, but in the end thats what it is all about: Numbers and limitations.

I will (try) not judge on this topic until i see it in action.

 

Exactly. Anybody who says this is death of customisation is (bizarrely) assuming that nothing will take its place - when in fact they have alreay stated they are going to have other customisation options which are superior (instead of simply being "how many extra points of vit can I squeeze out of my stats", it'll be "HOW MANY LASERS CAN I FIT INTO MY RUNES YAYYYYY").

 

Judging D3 by D2 standards is obviously flawed, for starters gear is unknown and I highely doubt that items will be in hierachy form with the best being the best and everything else subpar. The game is most likely to have a huge item database.

Secondly everyone is under the persumption that you'll be able to do 1 to 2 quests in an "Act" to progress onto the next act and I highly doubt this will be the case and "replaying" the game won't be a matter of trist runs, tomb runs, cow runs, boost, baal repeat until hell - in D3 termonology rather a more linear story which you won't be simply able to "skip" making the idea of stat min/maxing incredible painful if you have to replay the game.

 

Thanks kind of the point. With auto-stating, min/maxing will come from finding new gear with better stats, rather than having to reroll to redistribute stats optimally.

 

This sucks... what a joke by Blizzard saying that lol