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 by The Extremist, Level 28
Last updated at November 12, 2009, 11:17 am
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In his latest video entitled "Something Worth Fighting For: Video Games and Controversy," Daniel Floyd touches on something profound. He goes beyond all the "murder simulator," Hot Coffee, Modern Warfare 2 in DC, and Mass Effect "sex simulator" scandals and challenges everyone in the gaming industry to defend those projects that stand poised to push the medium from "making toys" to an artform at the cost causing discomfort and offence.
The game at the heart of his lecture/talk/presentation is Six Days in Fallujah, which we discussed at some length before when Konami pulled out of the game earlier this year.
Rather than providing a synopsis of an 8 minute video, I would just like to highlight a quote from James Portnow (previously from Activision, now running his own studio called Divide By Zero) as delivered by Floyd:
"This will take real courage from within our industry. It will take the bravery to face critique and the fortitude to weather outcry. It will ask that we expose ourselves to short-term financial risk and that we don't back down from early losses, firm in the knowledge that we are doing right. We will have to be steadfast under the scrutiny of the world and resolute when we're asked to justify ourselves in the court of public opinion.
It will ask that, for the moment, we give up ease. But if we can do this, we can do good, real good with our medium.
If we do this we can expand the industry and bring whole new genres within the purview of games. If we do this we can turn a greater profit while providing more meaningful experiences and reach audiences hitherto unthinkable. If we do this we can perhaps elevate some small portion of our labour to an art. But if we do this we will no longer be able to pretend as if what we do doesn't matter. If we do this we can never go back to the way it was before."
I posted this here because I wanted to discuss that quote but YouTube's commenting system sucks, and I'd much rather discuss it with Hellforge than with YouTube.
As someone who draws pictures is differentiated from artist, as an average novelist is to an author that creates literature; shall there be games that blur the line between entertainment and art as opposed to games that exist for entertainment alone? Is it possible? Is it worth it?
Rather than providing a synopsis of an 8 minute video, I would just like to highlight a quote from James Portnow (previously from Activision, now running his own studio called Divide By Zero) as delivered by Floyd:
"This will take real courage from within our industry. It will take the bravery to face critique and the fortitude to weather outcry. It will ask that we expose ourselves to short-term financial risk and that we don't back down from early losses, firm in the knowledge that we are doing right. We will have to be steadfast under the scrutiny of the world and resolute when we're asked to justify ourselves in the court of public opinion.
It will ask that, for the moment, we give up ease. But if we can do this, we can do good, real good with our medium.
If we do this we can expand the industry and bring whole new genres within the purview of games. If we do this we can turn a greater profit while providing more meaningful experiences and reach audiences hitherto unthinkable. If we do this we can perhaps elevate some small portion of our labour to an art. But if we do this we will no longer be able to pretend as if what we do doesn't matter. If we do this we can never go back to the way it was before."
I posted this here because I wanted to discuss that quote but YouTube's commenting system sucks, and I'd much rather discuss it with Hellforge than with YouTube.
As someone who draws pictures is differentiated from artist, as an average novelist is to an author that creates literature; shall there be games that blur the line between entertainment and art as opposed to games that exist for entertainment alone? Is it possible? Is it worth it?
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13 comments
Lonethar Nov 12, 2009 at 1:54 pm
+2 votes
I dont understand some things. In fact, I find it confusing to see 2 sides to this.
1) Kids dont need to be exposed to sex, drugs, and sexuality. Hell, some ADULTS shouldnt be exposed to it either, but I digress.
2) It is laughably easy for kids to get their hands on games with heavy themes in point one. It really is. This cannot be argued in a house that has an internet connection.
3) With that as an understanding, either tighter controls have to be on kids getting ahold of these games...which is impossible baring some REAL PARENTING by their parents. It is just too easy to use a torrent.
4) No games should be played by kids that the parents dont want them to have a hold of. (see point 2 as respects REAL PARENTING)
5) Anything a responsible...RESPONSIBLE...adult wants to do with his personal gaming tastes should not be censored or altered. This can be taken too far, Im speaking of the video on Hellforge outlining the airport massacre in Modern Warfare 2. And as much as I hated it, I still wouldnt want it censored or altered. See..I can just choose to not watch it or support a studio that wants it in their gaming.
1) Kids dont need to be exposed to sex, drugs, and sexuality. Hell, some ADULTS shouldnt be exposed to it either, but I digress.
2) It is laughably easy for kids to get their hands on games with heavy themes in point one. It really is. This cannot be argued in a house that has an internet connection.
3) With that as an understanding, either tighter controls have to be on kids getting ahold of these games...which is impossible baring some REAL PARENTING by their parents. It is just too easy to use a torrent.
4) No games should be played by kids that the parents dont want them to have a hold of. (see point 2 as respects REAL PARENTING)
5) Anything a responsible...RESPONSIBLE...adult wants to do with his personal gaming tastes should not be censored or altered. This can be taken too far, Im speaking of the video on Hellforge outlining the airport massacre in Modern Warfare 2. And as much as I hated it, I still wouldnt want it censored or altered. See..I can just choose to not watch it or support a studio that wants it in their gaming.
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Wargasm Nov 12, 2009 at 3:48 pm
+2 votes
How bout we stop lying to our kids? If they become aware of violence or whatever, just let them know what it's all about. If you raise them correctly they will make the right decisions. Stop thinking that kids are just sponges that absorb whatever you show them. They have the ability to know right from wrong if you let them. Making decisions for them their whole childhood makes for weak minded adults who are unable to make good decisions. Childhood is practice for adulthood, if you play it all in easy mode you will fail when it gets rough.
The Extremist Nov 12, 2009 at 5:03 pm
+2 votes
Thanks Lonethar and Wargasm for your comments. Some points:
1) The whole issue being discussed is that games are no longer just toys for kids. In answer to Lonethar's second point (as I believe it relates to this one), it's laughably easy for kids to get a hold of anything in a home with a semi-decent internet connection. Everything from porn to snuff clips can be found with relative ease. At 16 I had witnessed a murder in more graphic detail than even the most violent of the modern games can serve up when I was shown the clip of a US marine having his head cut off with a combat knife.
2) Is it worth giving up the ability to say "it's just a game" so that games might be recognised as an artistic medium akin to the non-interactive (or semi-interactive) arts? That is, film, theatre, music, painting, sculpture, literature...
3) Have we not already lost that defence in light of the strides made by games like the Modern Warfare franchise, and the controversy caused by games that are more generally scorned like rape simulators?
1) The whole issue being discussed is that games are no longer just toys for kids. In answer to Lonethar's second point (as I believe it relates to this one), it's laughably easy for kids to get a hold of anything in a home with a semi-decent internet connection. Everything from porn to snuff clips can be found with relative ease. At 16 I had witnessed a murder in more graphic detail than even the most violent of the modern games can serve up when I was shown the clip of a US marine having his head cut off with a combat knife.
2) Is it worth giving up the ability to say "it's just a game" so that games might be recognised as an artistic medium akin to the non-interactive (or semi-interactive) arts? That is, film, theatre, music, painting, sculpture, literature...
3) Have we not already lost that defence in light of the strides made by games like the Modern Warfare franchise, and the controversy caused by games that are more generally scorned like rape simulators?
Left4Kev Nov 13, 2009 at 12:31 am
+1 votes
What games have been "scorned as rape simulators"? Specific titles please.
The Extremist Nov 13, 2009 at 4:06 am
+1 votes
Just wanted to clarify the meaning of my sentence. I didn't mean "scorned as rape simulators." I meant, these games (such as rape simulators), one of which I will name, are generally scorned. That is, the game *is* a rape simulator and there's no dodging the definition.
The game in question is RapeLay. Check out the article at Wikipedia for a primer.
The game in question is RapeLay. Check out the article at Wikipedia for a primer.
Madyo Nov 13, 2009 at 8:27 am
+2 votes
Games are generally created for entertainment purposes foremost, and anything too artistic is simply not fun for the average player. Most publishers will never risk their profits, and thus will never create anything which the average player would not consider buying.
In your quote of Portnow, he mentions that "If we do (elevate game to an art) we can turn a greater profit while providing more meaningful experiences and reach audiences hitherto unthinkable." However, publishers will never try and cultivate new audiences at a risk of alienating their biggest purchaser, the average Joe.
There is an increasing trend of releasing fewer games that are more likely to succeed, as this is a much safer business model than that of ten or twenty years ago; where there was no established formula and any new innovation could turn into the next big hit. During this Golden Age, games were not yet well established as a business. They were cheaper to make, and even if a new idea failed there would be no huge loss involved. It was worth failing ten games to make the next Mario or Half-life.
As the cost of creating games has increased due to advancements in technology and player expectations, it takes a whole lot more to create a AAA title. The average person will not buy a game if it has poor graphics, and they will not buy it if reviews do not match their expectations.
On another note, I doubt games will ever be considered as 'high art', as their purpose is not to be artistic, but to entertain. In this sense they are more akin to comics than theatre, for example.
A good parallel to the games industry is the music industry. Most music nowadays cannot be called "art", and is simply produced to sell the most units possible. The difference between the two, however, is that anyone can pick up a guitar and pursue music artistically if they wish, there is little cost in doing this. It is far harder to do this with games.
In your quote of Portnow, he mentions that "If we do (elevate game to an art) we can turn a greater profit while providing more meaningful experiences and reach audiences hitherto unthinkable." However, publishers will never try and cultivate new audiences at a risk of alienating their biggest purchaser, the average Joe.
There is an increasing trend of releasing fewer games that are more likely to succeed, as this is a much safer business model than that of ten or twenty years ago; where there was no established formula and any new innovation could turn into the next big hit. During this Golden Age, games were not yet well established as a business. They were cheaper to make, and even if a new idea failed there would be no huge loss involved. It was worth failing ten games to make the next Mario or Half-life.
As the cost of creating games has increased due to advancements in technology and player expectations, it takes a whole lot more to create a AAA title. The average person will not buy a game if it has poor graphics, and they will not buy it if reviews do not match their expectations.
On another note, I doubt games will ever be considered as 'high art', as their purpose is not to be artistic, but to entertain. In this sense they are more akin to comics than theatre, for example.
A good parallel to the games industry is the music industry. Most music nowadays cannot be called "art", and is simply produced to sell the most units possible. The difference between the two, however, is that anyone can pick up a guitar and pursue music artistically if they wish, there is little cost in doing this. It is far harder to do this with games.
The Extremist Nov 15, 2009 at 3:54 am
+2 votes
In general, I agree with you regarding publishers and their profits. That's why when a title like Six Days in Fallujah comes around, which has already been green lit, or even MW2's (skippable!) controversial levels, the publishers (and developers) need to stick to their guns rather than rolling over at the first sign of adversity.
On your last point: Many forms of art started as pure entertainment. Daniel Floyd makes this point in an indirect way in his video. Let's take a look at the classic theatre we study today as both literature and performance art: Shakespeare. His work began as pure entertainment and is only regarded as art centuries down the line.
In comics the artistic branch of the graphic novel exists. Most who have read Watchmen and The Crow will agree that they are works of art.
I agree with your points on the music industry: barrier to entry for individuals is less expensive. As with games however, without a publisher to handle publicity and distribution for you, you're pretty stuck. It takes more than good music or a good game for people to notice you exist.
I also agree that most music nowadays can't be considered art, but I believe that there is plenty of contemporary music out there which is art. They tackle difficult topics, they make you feel deeper things than temporary amusement. Within Temptation and Disturbed are both bands that make music I consider art. Among Red, Skillet, Breaking Benjamin, Delain, and Linkin Park (and Chester Bennington's new side project Dead by Sunrise) there are also a number of songs I'd consider art.
On your last point: Many forms of art started as pure entertainment. Daniel Floyd makes this point in an indirect way in his video. Let's take a look at the classic theatre we study today as both literature and performance art: Shakespeare. His work began as pure entertainment and is only regarded as art centuries down the line.
In comics the artistic branch of the graphic novel exists. Most who have read Watchmen and The Crow will agree that they are works of art.
I agree with your points on the music industry: barrier to entry for individuals is less expensive. As with games however, without a publisher to handle publicity and distribution for you, you're pretty stuck. It takes more than good music or a good game for people to notice you exist.
I also agree that most music nowadays can't be considered art, but I believe that there is plenty of contemporary music out there which is art. They tackle difficult topics, they make you feel deeper things than temporary amusement. Within Temptation and Disturbed are both bands that make music I consider art. Among Red, Skillet, Breaking Benjamin, Delain, and Linkin Park (and Chester Bennington's new side project Dead by Sunrise) there are also a number of songs I'd consider art.
Cleric Nov 14, 2009 at 9:03 pm
+2 votes
Look at Blizzard.
They make a game the way they want to make it. And that's how it should be. Expectations and suggestions from the fans and public are welcome, as it can improve the game if it's implemented right etc. But at the end of the day, the developers and game company have the final say.
If a game is released and gets shunned to the abyss by controversy, protesters and critics etc, if there is good reason for why it's been made that way, those against the game can go screw themselves!
"If you really, REALLY believe from the beginning that Six Days in Fallujah was in poor taste, you'd never have given this game the go-ahead in the first place..."
There are reasons for why they decided to make the game, but those reasons were suddenly forgotten when some people started barking about their loss!? Harden the **** up, seriously!
I don't recall ppl stirring up **** over any WWII and Vietnam games where veterans died fighting for their country...?
People and public became too sensitive over the years, and are looking for someone to blame when things get too emotional. The company (and a respectable one too) found it important in some way, to show the world what happened in Fallujah, and bring the message across that WAR is not a picnic.
"Well I wouldn't necessarily say it's a way to honor the men that died that day, it's more of an honor for the people that fought there..."
Deciding to damage that company and grinding them into the ground because they wanted to show the public what has been shown in MANY movies in the past, but now in a game format, is just ******* stupid.
If you (the developer) truly believe that the game would do good, and honor those who fought there, you should stand your ground like those soldiers probably had to do too, and show the public your message you built into the game!
I know some things are gruesome, horrific and disturbing to see in a game. But let's face it, it's shown that way too, so you can realize that if this is just a game you are playing, be glad you weren't actually there to witness or experience that first hand. Message? The world is filled with bad and terrifying things. Let's make the REALITY of our lives better by not waging wars and commit murder, violence, theft and all those bad things come to be that reality.
They make a game the way they want to make it. And that's how it should be. Expectations and suggestions from the fans and public are welcome, as it can improve the game if it's implemented right etc. But at the end of the day, the developers and game company have the final say.
If a game is released and gets shunned to the abyss by controversy, protesters and critics etc, if there is good reason for why it's been made that way, those against the game can go screw themselves!
"If you really, REALLY believe from the beginning that Six Days in Fallujah was in poor taste, you'd never have given this game the go-ahead in the first place..."
There are reasons for why they decided to make the game, but those reasons were suddenly forgotten when some people started barking about their loss!? Harden the **** up, seriously!
I don't recall ppl stirring up **** over any WWII and Vietnam games where veterans died fighting for their country...?
People and public became too sensitive over the years, and are looking for someone to blame when things get too emotional. The company (and a respectable one too) found it important in some way, to show the world what happened in Fallujah, and bring the message across that WAR is not a picnic.
"Well I wouldn't necessarily say it's a way to honor the men that died that day, it's more of an honor for the people that fought there..."
Deciding to damage that company and grinding them into the ground because they wanted to show the public what has been shown in MANY movies in the past, but now in a game format, is just ******* stupid.
If you (the developer) truly believe that the game would do good, and honor those who fought there, you should stand your ground like those soldiers probably had to do too, and show the public your message you built into the game!
I know some things are gruesome, horrific and disturbing to see in a game. But let's face it, it's shown that way too, so you can realize that if this is just a game you are playing, be glad you weren't actually there to witness or experience that first hand. Message? The world is filled with bad and terrifying things. Let's make the REALITY of our lives better by not waging wars and commit murder, violence, theft and all those bad things come to be that reality.
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