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In the Gold Mine  added on Jul 10 2008
by Bethryn, Level 34
Last updated at May 19, 2009, 4:18 pm
A word of warning, this is more a (very longwinded) rant than an informed study or an unbiased blog.  But I think I've got a point worth making, because what I'm going to talk about is a mistake that developers are still making, "but in an ad hoc manner, and without the benefit of past experience."  You're probably all familiar with character statistic systems in a variety of RPGs, both of the action RPG variety and the more classic roleplaying variety.  JRPGs are mostly excused from this rant, by virtue of my not having played enough to really write about them in any detail, and their tendency from what I've seen, to have systems that are too simplistic (no offence!) to make these mistakes.

If you don't recognise what I mean by stats instantly, I'm talking about things like, "Strength," or, "Luck," and so on.  Those arcane mathematical systems that have some effect on your character's strengths and weaknesses in-game, and that, in the process of playing the game, you usually make some attempt to improve.  They vary in depth, sometimes painting your character in broad strokes with just values for your strength, toughness and intellect, and sometimes going all the way down to how far you can jump and how much you know about animal tracks.  And the thing that really amazes me is that the developers who have designed these systems, working on them for usually two to four years, so often don't seem to understand them.

Itemisation

A lot of RPGs have items, and these items - because they are magic items, and I have to say this is a very boring concept of 'magic' - improve your statistics.  Again, you should all be familiar with this: it's a very basic RPG concept.  You get items that improve your stats.  Ideally, you are looking for items that improve stats relevant to your character, so if you're a manly man who likes getting up close and in peoples' faces with your sword, you're probably looking for considerably metal armour with some high strength and toughness values, and if you're a sly, sneaky roguish character, you probably want something that helps you stay hidden and dodge more easily.

It is therefore with some great incredulity that I encounter games of this sort where the developers seem to have looked at their system, and thought to themselves, "right, Burly McFighter needs some plate armour, so I'll make some magic plate armour and it'll improve his intellect and knowledge of religious practices."  If they're not quite that stupid, they might still fall into the trap of thinking that everyone wants every stat, which they usually don't.

I'm not having you on when I say that this is still happening to this day, but first I'll start with an older game, that by virtue of being old maybe escapes criticism, because they had 8 years less experience than we have now: Diablo II.  Fans - and I realise I'm writing on a Diablo portal - may cry out that this is unfair, and that many items in the game are good.  And indeed, they are now.  Once the game had been out for a year and the players had taught the developers how to use their own system, they did design a lot of good items.  But before that, there were some terrible items, both uniques (exceptionally rare items with non-randomised stats) and sets (again, non-randomised stats where you gained more stats if you collected several parts of a set of items).

For a few examples, I direct you to the Arreat Summit page for the original sets (note that all the green bonuses were added much later, once the developers had realised how bad the stats on the items were) and a few uniques, notably wands (almost all of these wands are useless compared to the wands you can get from vendors, which improve the skills you actually use; Gravenspine, with its Dex/Str bonuses is a particular gem of an example) and daggers (items that no close combat character is likely to use, yet all of which include combat stats).  I'm being quite selective as there were a fair number of well-itemised uniques in the original, although many of them were only good enough to be used for a few levels before some item with randomly generated stats surpassed them.  But then again, the ability to modify your how brightly your character glowed (or didn't?!) was apparently an important stat for many of the earlier uniques!

While I'm on the subject of Blizzard games, I guess World of Warcraft should get a little tough love too.  Again, the itemisation is much improved two expansions on, and the developers and the players are mostly on the same page now.  Looking at 'vanilla' Warcraft though, meaning the game as it was originally released, there is a veritable wealth of examples of mixing up the stats needed by one class onto the items only usable or used by another.  I would guesstimate that more than a third of the quest rewards are either badly itemised (they'll have a useful stat and a useless stat on the same item), or just totally useless (there were quite a few cloth items, meant for ranged casting characters, with pure close combat stats on them).

Most of the earliest sets for level 60s fell into the category of, "everyone wants every stat," silliness.  Here's the Valor set, a set for close combat characters, that improves their spirit and agility, two stats that are pretty much worth diddly squat.  The Magister's set is worse still, improving the intelligence and spirit of casters.  Some of you may be thinking that intelligence, which improves the mana pool, is surely a good thing: I'll deal with you later.  It's not that it's a bad thing, it's just that it's not a very important thing.  That 4-piece bonus that improves spell power, that's an important thing.  Also, note that both of these sets - and most of the other, "Tier 0," sets - improve resistances by 8 as your bonus for collecting the entire lot.  This falls into another more easily avoidable category: putting insignificant numerical values of a stat onto an item.  If you were a Druid, Mage or Paladin at the launch of WoW, you hated Blizzard itemisation.

These are the basics here, and if you look at many of the games with such systems, you'll see these mistakes repeated over and over again.  And if you don't believe me when I say developers still haven't learnt, here is an example in Warhammer Online, released only last year!  A set - a very difficult to get set, no less - for the Bright Wizard, obviously an offensive caster, with stats like Willpower - which improves your healing done - or Weapon Skill - which improves your chance to parry and penetrate armour with melee attacks - on it.  Sadly, this is true of almost all the Renown (PvP) sets in Warhammer Online, and many players are wearing items with randomised stats that just happen to fulfil their needs better than items designed to fulfil their needs.  And these sets are supposed to be the best carrot on a stick you can possibly chase after...  so much for that!

     
12 comments
Agamemnon
Agamemnon May 19, 2009 at 4:55 pm
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I think what really just wrangles my ass about Fallout 3 is that Bethesda repeated the very same mistakes they made in Oblivion as well, just further hitting home that those guys need to hire more of their community modders to better understand what they are doing wrong.
Bethryn
Bethryn May 19, 2009 at 5:43 pm
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Which mistakes in particular?  I never played either.

I remember from watching one friend play it that in Morrowind there was the old issue of always jumping to increase your jump stat, and running into walls for your athleticism or whatever.  And another friend showed me that you could break the Oblivion stat system by selecting stats you'd never use as your main stats.  Thus, because monsters' levels were tied to your main stats' level, which remained low, while you levelled your combat stats normally, all the fights were trivialised.  That was an interesting system.
Agamemnon
Agamemnon May 19, 2009 at 5:49 pm
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The same leveling system followed right into Fallout 3 as well. I'm probably talking more about storyline options and how backwards-ass they were though. There were some quests like that in Oblivion, but they just seemed to say, "Hey, this was such a criticized thing in Oblivion, maybe we should bring this to Fallout 3!" and applied it to all of their quests. But the disposition meter and the factions people belonged to meant that, even if you stealthily killed one person in a settlement, the entire settlement would go hostile against you. Like, for instance. Mortiary is a douchebag. He owns a ghoul slave and he has Nova working as a prostitute to pay a debt she owes him. People even say around town they don't like him. But if you kill him you get negative karma and the entire town goes hostile against you.
Bethryn
Bethryn May 19, 2009 at 6:27 pm
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Yeah, there's always this issue of who you are and aren't 'supposed' to kill in a lot of RPGs.  To be fair, I think it's a very complex problem to solve; not necessarily the 'if you kill someone sneakily, other shouldn't notice' issue, but the general, 'how will the town react to me killing someone' one.  As you say, Moriarty is a massive dick, so even if killing him is a bit over the top, it should get you in less trouble than killing, say, Moira.  Or the Brahmin.  Or a Radroach.
Agamemnon
Agamemnon May 19, 2009 at 7:13 pm
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It was Bethesda's solution to their terrible radiant AI, which had dead people and bandits reporting your wilderness murders to cities miles away in Oblivion. Instead of trying to fix it, they just made it so if you kill someone in n faction, then that faction becomes hostile to you. What's more is that Bethesda did have a workaround to this in some instances--if you had a high disposition with a character and they had a low disposition to the character you killed, they might just say, "Hmph, better him than me" and walk away. Then again, sometimes they would say that and then a couple of seconds later go hostile.

Oh, even better. Some errors in Oblivion included killing Daedra and it counting as a murder. This proved exceedingly interesting in the Guarding Bruma quest line where the Captain of the Guard follows you in to close the Oblivion gate and then stops you and tries to arrest you for it.
Opet
Opet May 19, 2009 at 5:35 pm
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I just don't understand how anybody makes this kind of mistake. When I started playing wow I realised after about 20 levels that int and spirit gear was useless, and I was loading up on the old fiery wrath gear. The thought process that leads a large number of perfectly intelligent developers to make that kind of retarded mistake is just baffling.
Bethryn
Bethryn May 19, 2009 at 6:31 pm
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And even though I knew I wanted spell power gear, finding it was a complete nightmare.  Almost all the spell power gear came in random boss drop form, and practically none of it came from deterministic rewards.  I think my poor mage was stuck with an int/stam staff for almost two months. 8(
Sol Invictus
Sol Invictus May 20, 2009 at 2:30 am
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A thoughtful article, Bethryn. Truly.

While you've obviously played more Fallout 3 than I have, the problems with the system will seem immediately apparent to anyone who's ever played the previous Fallout games. Simply put, Bethesda did a complete hack job with SPECIAL and treated it with about as much dignity as a stray animal on the streets of Kerala.

What the original games had going for them was the need to specialize. In Fallout 3, there's little need to specialize because you'll max out all of your stats whether you like it or not. The need to specialize created so much replay value for the games because they allowed you to progress through the world and have completely different experiences. Pulling the most obvious example, a character with a low intelligence stat would be incapable of conversing in proper English.

It was interesting, if not somewhat amusing to see the reactions of the characters around you. Some would treat you with disdain while others, more kind, would treat you with empathy and offer you support you wouldn't otherwise receive as an able-minded character.

Fallout 1 in particular allowed for some fantastic roleplaying experiences, unduplicated thus far by any other RPG.
Erz
Erz May 20, 2009 at 6:33 am
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The Vanilla WoW itemisation was horrible. My Lock was toting a 'green wand of shadow damage' for ages because the +21 damage was better than anything pre-Naxx and my Fury Warrior held on to a HoJ for much the same reason (damn you Kiss of the Spider for not dropping sooner).
Neragizegath
Neragizegath May 24, 2009 at 4:09 pm
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The Fallout game concept is at the very top of the game worship temple for me, along with a few other games like Starcraft, Earthbound, Secret of Evermore, Kotr, Neverwinter Nights, Diablo, etc. For me Fallout was pretty much the height of what a true RPG could be. The replay value on 1 and 2 is basically unlimited. As soon as I'm done writing this I think I'm going to throw one in and that'll be my day.

On that note Bethesda can eat a whole bag of dix. When I heard that a third Fallout was being made I was ecstatic. When I heard Bethesda was making it I was crestfallen. Morrowind is a pretty good game. Oblivion not as much so. Numerous things I dislike about both of them. A mage, for instance, is pretty much unplayable in Morrowind and that being my favorite fantasy rpg character type burned me up. The problem? Your mana didn't regenerate. You had to find a place to sleep for seven or eight hours in order to have a full bar which was drained again in half of one encounter. This problem was only partially fixed in Oblivion. Your mana regenerates but your spells pretty much all suck. Now, I might be biased because i've got D&D brain when it comes to mages and you all know a D&D mages spells can rock. Is that a dragon? No prob, bring in a few meteor strikes. Blamalama, were havin' dragon tonight boys.

But I tried to keep up hope. Maybe the boys and girls at Bethesda would have respect for what the people before them had done and how all encompassingly great the first two games were. Maybe they wouldn't botch it up. Maybe Fallout 3 would be worthy of the title.  Maybe we'll all wake up tomorrow and find out that Bob Dole got elected instead of Bill Clinton.

Bethesday makes games that are bright and shiny and delicious looking on the surface, but after about one play (or less) through inevitably turn out to be rather shallow in terms of real RPG value, rife with judgment errors and typically have very little replay value. In Fallout one and two as Sol mentioned if you had a low IN you talked like you were dropped as a child. Me Sloth, you friend, heha, heha, Baby Ruth? If you had a high IN you talked circles around people. Yeah Myron I do understand how you made jet and i'm not impressed.
Fallout 3? Yah! Bethesda.  The hardworking people at bethesda decided it didn't matter if your character was legally a tard or actually a genius, they were still going to talk the same.
In Fallout 1 and 2 if you had a low charisma some people wouldn't even give you the time of day. It was still kind of a dump skill if you wanted a straight fighter/shooter character but it legitimately took away gameplay options. You like replay value? I like replay value. So much of the dialogue and character interaction is reliant on your character attributes in 1 and 2 that you'll continually find new ways to progress through the game. In 3 all the special points seem to affect are your starting skill points and your skill points don't seem to really affect the game that much.

How do you turn a game that has levels to a hundred and allows you to put like 200% in skill points into a game with twenty levels and a promise to max out pretty much all your skill points at a hundred, guaranteeing the most plastic cookie cutter character every time?  Bethesda can do it.  And even though they've fixed it since, what conventional wisdom was Bethesda looking at when they decided to end the game after Take It Back! The ability to play after the 'end' of 1 and 2 is fallout to the core.

So Fallout 3 has made the great leap from 2d and looks shiny and delicious now, but apparently at the cost of turning the game primarily into a shooter. All the rpg elements seem tacked on and secondary to what is now shooter style combat. The character develepment is stunted thanx to pretty much all the perks being useless and many of them being mildly retarded, so after you've reached level twenty without the new DC you wander about the wasteland with considerably less drive or direction than before, actually avoiding confrontation. Killing those raiders is going to wear out my plasma rifle and tesla armor, they don't have anything I want and i'm not going to gain any xp...so i'm going to go around. It basically breaks your suspension of disbelief, which makes for a bad rpg.

Essentially I don't think Fallout 3 is a Fallout game. I don't think Fallout 3 is really an rpg. It's an action/adventure-rpg with strong shooter elements.  (I want to break down and just scream that its an f-ing shooter.  Don't get me wrong, I love Doom, Quake, Deadspace, COD4 online, etc.)    Bethesda, you suck and I really, really, really hate you.
Bethryn
Bethryn May 24, 2009 at 6:51 pm
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Strong post, I think I agree with you on every point!
20freddie12
20freddie12 May 25, 2009 at 11:04 pm
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Yeah, i never understood why they even made Mario jump in SuperMario Bros. Cus' once you get the Flower the jump becomes a useless stat.

-lol's of course i'm just joking.-

And for the most part, i simply said the above, because you guys have literally (especially you neragizageth) taken the words straight from my mouth.
I agree with you all, unfortunatly... will there ever be a perfect RPG?

lols i'm not sure which is bigger? the main thread post by Bethryn, or Neragizageth's post?
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